Decisions
March 7, 2008
Here’s the thing.
I’ve lately been seriously considering making the Volara campaign GURPS-based, instead of the D&D 3.5 I have previously stated.
As you may (or may not) be aware, many of Volara’s NPCs have been adopted from previous games. This means that there are Vampire: The Masquerade characters, GURPS characters, Marvel Super Heroes characters, AD&D characters, Shadowrun characters, and D&D 3.5 characters running around in the background (Okay, I may be lying about one of those systems, but maybe not).
Obviously, these characters have been/will be modified (sometimes heavily) to fit into this new world. You need have no fear of Spider-man or Lestat clones popping up.
But, from a GM perspective, it would be a heck of a lot easier to adapt these characters to the GURPS setting than to 3.5, as the previous is a universal system specifically designed to accept and work with numerous settings, while 3.5… is not.
Beyond that, I like the idea that GURPS is a role-playing system designed around skills which are used sometimes for combat, while 3.5 is a combat system with a bit of role-playing tacked on.
What do I mean?
Well, GURPS 4th Edition, chapter one deals with character concept and what role-playing is before it describes stats, skills, or other aspects of play. From there it delves into character types, as there are no set character classes in the system. The D&D 3.5 Player’s Handbook, by comparison, doesn’t delve into the same questions until chapter 6, as the last thing to do before you play.
In any case, I am toying with using GURPS, but I haven’t made a decision yet. Technically, if all my players don’t react vehemently to the idea, I might choose it,even though it would mean a lot more effort on my part (there seems to be a lack of generic monsters to throw at the party, and I would need to specifically design the PC races).
Technically, character creation is more complex in GURPS, as the players do have to completely design their characters from the ground up (though there are templates as guidelines). Past that, however, the game mechanics are fairly simple.
Yes, you will have to forgo all but your cube-shaped dice.
In GURPS, there are no class levels. Your character never ‘levels up,’ it simply develops over the course of the game.
Since, to my knowledge, none of my players are familiar with the GURPS system, here is a link to GURPS Lite (just add to cart, then check out without registering) which is designed as an introductory guide to the game. The .pdf is free, and it’s complete enough that you can make characters and run a simple game with nothing but the information in it.
All I ask is that you give the rules a fair once-over before you give me your yea or nay.
Tagged: D&D, fantasy world, GURPS, Marvel Super-Heroes rpg, Role-playing Games, RPG, Shadowrun, Vampire: The Masquerade, Volara
March 7, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Heh. You know what my vote would be, but I’m not playing so I guess I don’t count. Feel free to pick my brain regarding GURPS if you do go that route. I’ve got all the 4th Ed books (including the Print On Demand E23 ones) to date.
March 8, 2008 at 8:42 am
Okay, I will.
Do any of them provide some good ready-made monsters? Would they be hard to convert from the 3rd Edition books?
Also, when creating racial templates, are there racial advantages and disadvantages, or do you just work from the regular advantage list. 3rd Edition had the “Fantasy Folk” book, which contained a number of races and racial template creation stuff, but I’m not sure how hard it would be to convert that material to 4th.
I haven’t played GURPS in a long time, possibly ten years.
March 9, 2008 at 8:05 am
For the sheer thirst of novelty I’m up for trying a new gaming system without the D&D stamp. Heck, I’d be up for a White Wolf campaign. I’m also interested in the advantages/disadvantages arrangement of GURPS since I enjoyed them so much in the 2.5 edition of D&D. Memories of Dank.
I’ve scanned the Gurps Lite pdf and I’m having difficulty with the lack of plain old class features such as spells and paladin/bard type abilities. I know these are most likely explained in another manual but can you fill me in on how they work in Gurps?
March 9, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Well, I’m currently leaning towards GURPS, as I think it would be an interesting change.
With regards to class features, well, it’s pretty much a free-for-all. Since there are no classes, you would simply take a combination of skills and advantages (or disadvantages) that give you roughly the same abilities that you would have in D&D, if that was what you wanted to do, though the advantage in GURPS is that there is no set character development.
In the main GURPS book alone, there are over 200 advantages representing a wide variety of abilities, and close to the same number of skills. Compare that to the 46 skills (with all the knowledge skills counting separately) and 110 feats (including metamagic and item creation) in the 3.5 Player’s Handbook. On the other hand, there are no class feats, so you would have to take those from the advantages, but it means you don’t get stuck with feats or class abilities that you don’t want/use.
Spells are one example of an advantage. First, you take the “Magery” advantage (it can be taken at different levels, from 0 to whatever I say is the max, probably 2 or 3 at character creation). Then, each spell classifies as a skill, which you buy in the same way as the other skills. Technically, not all spells require magery (depending on what I decide the mana level of Volara will be). Most spells have some sort of prerequisite, so you have to learn “Ignite Fire,” “Create Fire,” and “Shape Fire” before you can learn “Fireball.” Thus, most mages will generally have only a few of the more powerful spells, so that’s kind of the same, but you could technically have one or two of those powerful spells at character creation, depending on how you built the character.
A couple other examples of advantages are Extra Attack, Luck, Amidexerity, or Damage Resistance. Some of which would be basic class abilities (sort of) in D&D.
Does that answer your question?
March 9, 2008 at 6:56 pm
@ Jon: I know the 4E Fantasy and Banestorm (banestorm being the default Gurps fantasy world) Books have a fair number of critters in them. I can see what I can do about getting those portions to you. The rest though is just plagiarism and kit-bashing to your heart’s content. I’ve a bunch of critters from 3E GURPS books that can be pretty much used as is as well if you need them. They’ve plans for putting out some digital bestiaries on the e23 site but they haven’t surfaced yet.
As for Racial Templates. Pretty much yes. You can assign any of the advantages/disadvantages from the list to a racial template and there are some that only work (or are allowed) as racial adv/dis depending on the campaign type. For example, Extra Arms generally is not something your average character would have in a standard fantasy campaign, though it could represent some sort of multi-armed race. But if you wanted, and were playing in a Supers campaign, it’s possible to have a superhero with that advantage. It’s really all situational depending on what you want to do with it.
@ Mark: There are no classes per se so there are no abilities specific to classes. GURPS is a skill based system. Your skills and your advantages/disadvantages help define what your character is capable of. It’s the perfect system to promote roleplaying because YOU say what you want and the skills, etc keep track. Jon’s example of Magery is one way to define yourself, and it’s just the tip of the iceberg. You could modify your Magery to only allow you to cast spells of a certain College (Fire, Enchantment, Body Control, Illusion, etc) You could aspect it so as you can only cast spells during daylight hours. It’s highly malleable. Hell You can, with enough points, make a mage who has enough strength to wear plate armour, Wield a claymore and still cast a fireball big enough to gut the town. That’s the rub though… do youhave the points?
Comparatively. A first level D&D character is about the equivalent to a 75 or 100 point character using 4E rules. The rule of thumb is that you can take up to half the starting pt limit in disadvantages on top of that (but it’s GM’s decision) which generally allows for a 100 pt character taking up to 50pts of Disadvantages and essentially being a 150pt character when all’s said and done.
(And to play with all of your heads. GURPS is a D6 game. Uses 3D6 for pretty much any roll. 3 is a critical success. 18 is a crit fail).
March 10, 2008 at 2:48 am
Yes, you’ve both cleared up a few things. The GURPS lite manual never explained how important advantages were. I thought they were more along the lines of what was featured in 2.5 D&D.
With all these options character creation becomes kind of daunting for me. I suppose I’ll be waiting impatiently to discover which limitations are imposed and what choices are available in terms of character creation before I can begin the lengthy process.
March 10, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Well, at this point, just work on a character concept. Character creation will be much easier if you have an idea of what you want to be, and what you think would be cool to be able to do.
From there, I would suggest *ahem* acquiring the “GURPS 4th Edition Basic Set – Characters” book and going through the advantages and skills there.
See what skills, advantages, and disadvantages appeal to you and fit in with your character concept. You will need special permission from me on any “exotic” or “supernatural” advantages or disadvantages. Your skills cannot be above TL4. Those terms will mean something when you spend very little time looking in that book.
I will post more character creation guidelines at some point soon, I hope, and if I have time (we’re kind of in a chaotic place right now).
Also, if I don’t hear anything from any of my other players on this topic by this weekend, I’m going to assume that they’re cool with using GURPS.
March 11, 2008 at 5:30 am
I’ll do that.
I mentioned to Wes and Robin that you were thinking of GURPS and their response was tepid, though there was no definite yea or nay. I recall 4th edition being mentioned but I believe that only comes out in June.
March 11, 2008 at 9:53 am
Oh Jon. Something you might be interested in picking up (or Downloading) is the $20 buck Character Creator program from e23. It’s really useful for printing out sheets on the fly. It’s fairly basic in it’s backend language and such, but it gets the job done well enough.
Also, If Mark, etc, needs it I can post an example character on my site that they could use as a reference.
March 12, 2008 at 2:01 pm
I don’t really know what to say, but I just like dnd. I understand how to play, and the variety comes from the players and DM. The amount of actual dnd we have played and will play by the time you return will actually have been very limited. We’ve gone from scifi to warcraft now to final fantasy.
I like rolling my d20. The d20 system is getting more concise with each upgrade. I like going from a d4 weapon to a d10 weapon. If you ask me, GURPS seems to take the joy out of rolling dice, probably because the creators wanted something different from dnd or couldn’t afford a full set of dice.:D
Before the variety we engaged in Matt was DMing, and we played a good old fashioned dnd game, and it was fun. I had a lot of fun. I’m really getting tired of other systems that aren’t up to par with the history and experience of dnd. I’m even tired of my own warcraft campaign, and its flawed system.
Not to mention we have two new players, who’ve already been tossed around from 2nd ed to 3rd ed to alternative systems, etc etc.
I also like the massive assortment of roles you can play in 3rd ed dnd, as much as I don’t like the amount of books it amasses. I like taking our familiar system and attempting to play different roles and adventures.
Sorry to be negative about it, but I really don’t want to play GURPS.
March 12, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Other reasons being that I had only today just chosen the classes and prestige class I was going to involve my character with.
March 12, 2008 at 8:09 pm
So that’s one “yea” and one “nay.”
R, I know what you mean when you say that GURPS tries to take the joy out of rolling dice, but that’s primarily because they wanted to reduce the amount of rolling overall. Whenever we discuss D&D, we always come to the combat aspect, and how that is close to 50% of the game. Whether you like the combat rules or not for GURPS is less of an issue, as the system is not based around combat to the extent that D&D is (the game could easily be a complete mystery adventure or a political thriller, with literally no combat, depending on what choices the players make).
You have to realize that GURPS 3rd Edition is actually a year older than AD&D 2nd Edition (it’s creator has been involved in the system since its creation in 1985, and has been a game designer since before his own company was founded in 1980). As a result, it is definitely a misnomer to refer to it as a system that isn’t up to par with D&D’s history and experience.
Yes, it is a very different system than D&D all around. I think you would find that the variety of roles in GURPS far outweighs the variety of roles in D&D, and that using only the core book. Seriously.
The two new players would, I suspect, be somewhat overwhelmed by character creation, but then, I suspect they were (and still would be) overwhelmed if we were to play a 2nd Edition AD&D campaign. Beyond that, the system is not very complex, to the extent that the d20 system is, if anything, influenced by the GURPS system’s simple game mechanics.
With regards to class, well, as Greg and I discussed with M above, there are no classes (or prestige classes) in GURPS. You design the character, decide what you want that character to do, then choose skills, advantages, and disadvantages that match the desires for what the character is capable of. I would like to know what you’ve decided on though, just in case I do agree to go the 3.5 route.
I would also like to point out that we have only played two non-D&D games in the time we have been a gaming group. We played exactly one night of RIFTS (which would have been interesting to continue), and we played the Immortal campaign that everyone seemed to really enjoy (which you were also initially opposed to !).
BUT…!!!
I am not yet saying that we will definitely be playing GURPS. I have yet to hear from W or A on the subject, and until I do, I won’t make up my mind.
March 12, 2008 at 10:52 pm
I’m pretty sure that DnD is older than GURPS, as it started in the 70s, but I was referring to the mass following of DnD and the rich improvements, additions, and expansions that DnD has received. There are now probably thousands working on DnD creations, that’s a lot more experience and history than any roleplaying game.
As much as we don’t always like looking up things during a battle, the DnD combat system is very refined, and most of us enjoy combat as much as we enjoy roleplay.
The two new players did have a tough time with 2nd edition DnD, and we all were annoyed with the whole system in the end anyway – we just gave it a try to help the new players experience it:D
Yes, I enjoyed Immortal, but Immortal is Immortal; GURPS is an alternative playing system.
As a side note: I was looking at a Daggerspell Shaper in the Daggerspell Guardians in the Complete Adventurer, if the organization can be give a role in the world of Volara.
March 12, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Afterthought: I liked disadvantages and advantages too, but can’t those just be implemented into a DnD game? Give us a list and points to use. I’m GURPS has some good ideas, but I don’t want to play another system.
March 12, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Another option I’ve been looking at is a LG Invisible Blade from the Complete Warrior.
March 13, 2008 at 1:44 pm
I think you’re misunderstanding a key point about GURPS.
GURPS is NOT an alternative rule system for use with D&D, it is a completely different RPG ruleset, just as Immortal and RIFTS are. While there are aspects that may be adapted into D&D usage, it is not designed around the core D&D rules in any way, shape, or form. It is a separate thing entirely.
That said, however, GURPS is literally designed to be universal, so one could adapt D&D, Immortal, Shadowrun, RIFTS, or Vampire into it with ease (in some cases, there actually exist officially licensed products from these other systems in order to allow adaptation to the more fluid GURPS system).
I didn’t mean to imply that GURPS is older than D&D, as D&D is the older system. I was simply pointing out that GURPS is well-established, and it had already gone through two revisions before AD&D was in its second incarnation. The 3rd edition rules were used for 16 years before they changed to the 4th edition in 2004.
In addition, D&D has changed hands (both in terms of creative teams and ownership) on a few occasions, while Steve Jackson has been directly involved in GURPS since he created the system. As a result, its creator has more involvement with rpgs than any single person still working on D&D.
While there are not as many people working on GURPS based products, there are over 200 books for the 3rd Edition. It never had an OGL, like the D20 system, however, so all production is done “in-house” by Steve Jackson games, though GURPS has proven open to letting others create worlds.
My point about combat is simply that it is a secondary part of GURPS. D&D is essentially based around the idea of a group of adventurers traveling in the wilderness or into a dungeon where they find and fight monsters. GURPS is based around the idea of a group of adventurers who are doing something, and combat happens sometimes. Combat is secondary to the plot and the characters goals (unless combat is a character goal).
I do not think that any of you would have difficulty learning the GURPS rules. What I said about difficulty creating characters is simply because there is such a vast array of options available to the players at character creation, which is why they suggest coming up with a character concept and history before creating the character.
I don’t really think that the advantage and disadvantage system could be adapted very easily into D&D, as that is the core of GURPS. Essentially, all feats and class abilities are replaced by advantages (or, in some cases, by disadvantages). This is inaccurate, as the GURPS advantage and disadvantage system came long before D&D had feats. Since there are no classes, one simply picks and chooses what one wants in order to create the character as one envisions it.
While I trust that you have taken a look at GURPS Lite, I’ll give you the same suggestion that I gave to Mark. *Ahem* “acquire” the “4th Edition Basic Set-Characters” book (not Campaigns), and browse through it. Read Steve Jackson’s introduction to that book.
I think that you’ll find that the options available are huge, but you’ll also find that the whole thing is designed very differently from D&D. If you find similarities between GURPS and the D20 system, remember that GURPS came first (the 4th Ed is only a slight variation on the 3rd, making many of the 3rd Edition supplements part of the core rules).
March 13, 2008 at 1:46 pm
I’m not familiar with the Daggerspell Shaper or the Invisible Blade, but I’ll look them up.
March 14, 2008 at 12:14 am
All I meant was that GURPS is an alternative roleplay system, another ruleset to get the same effect. I’m tired of learning new games.
If you remember, I was the fire elemental type thing that started most of the fights in Immortal, I was the one who killed the kender in Mark’s game. I like fighting. Even the one time we LARPed, I was the one who hit Adam in the forehead with a boomerang. In other words, I like battle, I like competition, I like the DnD system because of its heroic possibilities.
March 14, 2008 at 11:48 am
Trust me. WHile Jon has downplayed the combat system in GURPS. Fear not. It’s A hell of a lot more robust that you think. THere are critical Hit tables. Hit locations and HIT points PER location. YOu can cripple a limb very easily in gurps. There are three different types of melee damage (Crushing, Cutting and Impaling). Armour has both Passive defense that adds bonuses to dodge/parrying and Damage resistance to soak up damage. Hell there are even Damage multipliers once you bypass armour and you can cause blowthrough damage (basically you overdmg an area… happens a lot with impaling weapons).
so trust me as someone who speaks from the experience of having a character taking from full HP (12pts to -13 times my HP in one shot) and becoming the sci-fi head in a jar character for the rest of the adventure.
COMBAT IS VERY ROBUST. AND VERY SIMPLE TO LEARN (OR RATHER IT”S AS COMPLEX OR SIMPLE AS YOU WANT TO MAKE IT)
And Gurps has The Heroic possibilities. It’s based in realism and firmly grounded there but it also allows for what is known as cinematic variants. Wherein you can replicate the feats of Wuxia movies and such far better than you could using D&D’s prefabricated rulesets and character classes.
March 17, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Yes, R, GURPS is an alternative ruleset. Yes, it’s a new system to learn.
My point about combat was never that it can’t be done, or that the system isn’t designed to work with it. Rather, I don’t want it to be the focus of the campaign.
If I make Volara a GURPS-based world, will you get to bash orcs? Yes. Undead? You betcha. Dragons? Quite possibly.
But I want the combat to be secondary to the plot. I want you, as a group, to fight because it makes sense. I don’t want a game where the players have nothing to do so they wander into the wilderness to bash monsters.
I understand that you don’t want to learn a new system. As I’ve been away, I don’t know how different the systems you’ve played in our absence have been. All I know is that I’ve played D&D almost exclusively for the last 8 years, and I want to work with something different.
The GURPS system has been around for over 20 years now, it’s won awards for game design, so there must be something to it.
That said, I want W to give me his input, too. Does he feel the same way you do? Is he simply ambivalent? I don’t know the new players, but their opinions are also welcome.
If even two of my players are completely deadset against GURPS, I will probably (and definitely grudgingly) put the idea to rest.
March 17, 2008 at 8:07 pm
First off, the kender had a name…mind you I can’t remember what it was at the moment but it was a good name and she shouldn’t have been killed!*grumble*
Second, I dunno what to say about the whole game system. I mean ya, I like my colorful dice set as much as the next kender but what I really miss is the gaming. So whether I’m rolling a D6 or a D20 so long as I can do it in good company and bad coffee I’m set. So if you want to do GURPS ok. If you wanna do AD&D ok. I just miss my friends and wanna game…
If you want a more definite answer, I’ll have to think on it a bit more. Until then, either or.
March 20, 2008 at 6:58 pm
In the words of Dire Straights:
“I want my, I want my, I want my d20.”
It’s not that I’m dead-set against GURPS, I just fail to see the usefulness of engaging in a new roleplaying system, especially when the one we are currently engaged in is releasing a new edition in just a few moments. I would say that that at least warrants a gander before leaving it behind.
And although D&D is no longer controlled by anyone resembling a creator, it is controlled by people who do play the game, and extensively tested and tweaked by those who play the game before even being considered for release. Mind you, they are largely a group of people who were shunned and mocked in junior high, and want nothing more than to escape to another world and compensate for their own feelings of inadequacies there by playing characters who can destroy others with a single blow and who exhibit no weaknesses whatsoever . . . but I’ve always seen there to be a possibility of growing beyond that regardless.
I think that what gets me down the most is just learning a new system in general. I find that that greatly hampers rollplay for a few months while people acclimate themselves to it. And are we really going to use this system long enough to truly feel comfortable enough with it to, well, do what we would have been doing with our characters from day one playing d20 anyway? I mean, sure it’s nice having more focus on characters actually put on the character sheets, but we’ve always done that anyway, I just wasn’t writing down that I was a cannibal, a pathological liar, or an untrustworthy pervert.
As far as getting rid of all the pretty shineys (my big fat bag o’ dice), I’m not too fond of that idea either. Not JUST because I like the feel of rolling different kinds of colourful dice (the right tool for the right job!) but also because the d20 offers a superior level of randomness (see: the consciousness of the universe is able to spank you whenever it damn well pleases) to a threesome of d6’s, which actually only have 15 possible outcomes. I was frustrated at times with the small statistic range in immortal, and relieved to get back to good ol’ 20. Not that I actually use most of the range . . . err, but it’s nice to know that it’s there for the rest of your party to capitalize on.
Perhaps this all sounds overly negative, but I really don’t know enough about GURPS to say much good about it, and don’t really have time right now to do any further reading on the issue.
March 26, 2008 at 9:22 am
Oh come now. After the long awaited, and lengthy response I have posted, there is no rebuttal or discussion at all?
March 26, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Sorry, but your post came the day before the last weekend we had to pack and clean our apartment. Then the week came, and we’ve been busy. And I’m on my lunch break, so I can’t post much.
I will throughly reply, but maybe not until early next week (or tonight, or tomorrow if our internet doesn’t end before then).
March 27, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Okay, here you go. My rebuttal.
First, I would like to point out that the Dire Straits were using the line ironically, so I feel that I should take your statement in the spirit that Knopfler intended.
Next, I see your argument against learning GURPS based on the nearness of 4e’s release as inherently flawed. Essentially, you’re arguing that you don’t want to learn a new ruleset because there’s a new ruleset coming out for the system you currently use. You could argue that 4e uses the same core system (the d20 system), and it does, but the stats, classes, races, abilities, skills, and feats are different enough that it might as well be a whole new ruleset. The creative team have said as much, to the extent that you won’t even be able to transfer over your 3.5 characters. Even the change from 2nd to 3rd had official conversion suggestions/rules.
Yes, there is a creative team behind D&D 4E, but, as I’ve point out on numerous occasions, the fact that the entire system is combat centered means that the creators are ultimately working with a game that has little option but to be combat centered. Now, I don’t want to come across as against combat, I don’t, as I do create combat characters and conflict makes a game interesting, but I think that D&D places so much emphasis on combat that a player and a DM have no choice but to go that route. For example, in the 3.5 PHB, there are a whopping 4 feats (other than item creation and metamagic) that are not directly based on either combat or skill boosting. As you say, the game is currently designed by (and for) people who got beat up a lot and who want to do the same to imaginary monsters. It can be more than that, but I think that the system is inherently limited for anything beyond bashing.
With regards to learning a new system, I honestly think you would find GURPS very easy to work with. As a player, you need to know about success rolls and damage rolls. Essentially, for success rolls, you find your target number, you roll 3d6, and you see if you hit the target. For damage rolls, you roll Xd6 and add or subtract to figure damage, based on your weapon. It’s not a complex system to learn. I know that you will have as much trouble acquainting yourself with the 4e rules. Reports from the convention at the beginning of March suggest that 4e combats were taking 1.5 to 2 times as long as the same combats in 3.5, and these are gamers hardcore enough to actually game at a convention. This is with the new “easy” and “streamlined” combat ruleset.
Also, it’s not so much that you’re writing cannibal/pathological liar/untrustworthy pervert on your character sheet with GURPS. It’s more that you have more detail about your specific character. Essentially, there are rewards for taking a flawed character. In the examples you gave, your character would have disadvantages worth 15-20 points(cannibalism), 15 points(liar), or 15 points (pervert). Disadvantages are optional, but they help build the character. Taking these negative aspects of your character, things you choose to do anyways, gives you more points to spend on the positive aspects of your character.
I can’t say how long we’ll be using the system. If Amanda and I find work in Moncton, then maybe we’ll be there permanently. In that case, I have put (and will put) too much work into Volara to want it to be a small-time campaign. I suspect that many of my games will be based there, and all using the same system. In addition, you may try GURPS, thoroughly enjoy it, and not want to go back. It is a beautiful system.
With regards to the different dice, I’m sure I could modify the weapons to use the other dice, if that was what everyone wanted. While 3d6 don’t have 20 possible outcomes (there are 16 outcomes, not 15), they form a statistical set that makes more sense than a d20’s randomness. On a d20, there is always a 5% chance of critically succeeding or failing (theoretically). While critical hits and misses are statistically more uncommon with 3d6, they still exist (and are altogether more spectacular; the GURPS crit tables are beautiful, both in and out of combat). Further, I find it really annoying when you’re a high level character in D&D, say you’ve reached a level where you can have 20 ranks in a skill, you’re one of the best in the world at that skill, and if you need a 30 to succeed, you’ve still got a 45% chance of failing (a 9 or lower). In GURPS, the rolls average out more, which means that the game becomes more about what you know or don’t know, but you can still try most things. Yes, you’ll roll 10s more with 3d6, but that means that everyone (regardless of luck) is more likely to be successful, or to fail, depending on skill level. It isn’t as random, but then, one likes to think that the charcacter’s skill should play a part. There are still plenty of chances for the Great Will of the Macrocosm to spank you, man, especially since the crits can change with your level of skill (both in and out of your favor).
There is something I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned before. I played GURPS before I played D&D. I GM’d GURPS before I played D&D, and my first successful (extended) campaign as a GM used the GURPS 3rd edition ruleset. It’s a very easy system to learn. It’s not all about special combat abilities, though it has them. It’s not about creating a templated character type with a (mostly) set progression, though you can work from templates if you like.
What GURPS does is let you create the character how you want to create the character, and then it lets you develop that character how you want to develop that character. Characters develop a little at a time, but they also develop in the ways that the players want them to.
I will compare D&D to GURPS by making acting analogies.
D&D is an improv game. You know the rules, you have a few ideas for the character given to you, but even if the audience always says “play a waiter” you play the waiter differently every time. In our games, we could have interesting characters, and some idea of what our characters were like, but there were numerous nights when one or another of us just wasn’t in the right mood, mental place, or energy level for what we had previously done with the character, so the character shifts drastically from session to session. There is no internal aspect of D&D that pushes you above and beyond in the roleplaying.
GURPS is like having a scene for the character. You can read the lines you’re given and you get an idea about what to do with the character. Every time you start, you can look at the lines, and you have an idea of what/who the character is. At the start of your gaming session, you look at your list of advantages, disadvantages, quirks, and skills, and you are reminded of what the character is like. Not everything is on the sheet, as not everything about the character is in the script, but you can look at the character sheet and you have a frame to get into. GURPS has an internal method of bringing you to your character, and it rewards you for having a good character. Before it talks about attributes or skills, GURPS talks about the character; it talks about receiving bonus points for having a good character concept and history. GURPS is based around playing the character you want to play.
Finally, no one is saying that gaming is an either/or situation. There is nothing saying that we can’t play with a different system for a while and then return to 3.5 D&D, 2nd AD&D, 4e D&D, Rifts, or Immortal, or else try Shadowrun, Exalted, Vampire, Werewolf, Traveller, Cthulu, or one of the numerous other systems that are available.
You don’t just play one video game, or watch one TV series, or read one book series, so why should we limit ourselves to just one gaming system. D&D’s popularity doesn’t make it the best system, and how can you know if you’ll like another system until you try?
March 27, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Nicely put Jon.
March 27, 2008 at 10:12 pm
At the risk of fanning a flame – which I unfortunately tend to do best – it’s not overly fair to say someone’s comments are flawed when you use your own bias as a rebuttal. Then again, he did ask for you to comment and I know we have a bias towards DnD.:D
I’ve been thinking about that game where we used rules from the 2.5 set – disadvantages/advantages/traits. I DMed that game, and I didn’t like it. The characters, full credit to my gamers, were powerful and well-created – you always do great characters. The game itself was a pain in the rear to do. The story could never go anywhere, because the characters’ personality overpowered everything.
Also, the dice for a GURPS game is far from enticing, so there’s no real point in mentioning that. I also like the classes in DnD. I like following a progression that I couldn’t create myself, and there is always room to alter and change things up within those classes, ie feats. I do remember J saying on multiple occasions “I love feats”. Basically, I just don’t want to create my own character from scratch.
With that in mind, I don’t think you should bring acting into this. Roleplaying is not acting. I’ve come to terms with that. Even LARPing isn’t acting. I don’t believe people would be ready to give the effort into to truly “acting” a character, not for a relaxing pastime. Roleplaying is taking a character role in a storyline. Many times, you get a character made for you, so the storyline can continue.
If you’re going to talk acting, I’d like to point out that character development doesn’t start with traits/advantages/disadvantages/etc. You never start with thinking “I’m going to play a man with a twitch, a love for pain, an immense mental strength, and a charming personality.” These are always secondary, things that are norms that are setup to be broken. They are also things a weak actor falls back on (I’m not saying J is a weak actor; I would say far from that.).
I think having a reminder of character for players is a good thing to have, as it’s not always easy to remember week to week. A few quirks can help you get back into character. This is something I tried to insert into my last game, but only to give the characters personal drive:
http://riphoudouso.wordpress.com/diary-of-a-dm/
Just as a last comment, W and I have been playing DnD since grade 7 or 8 (I can’t seem to figure out how many years that is…lol), but we still love it. We still create new characters. We still create new games and stories.
March 27, 2008 at 10:13 pm
I just realized that that website doesn’t have the character creation guide that I had done for that game, so it’s useless to read. My brain hurts.
March 28, 2008 at 6:43 am
I’ve kept myself out of the give and take for awhile but here’s a suggestion. It may appear unfair at first, but I’d like all the players to consider it.
Jon hasn’t gamed with us in some time, not to mention everybody’s favorite kender. How long? Say, almost two years? I mean, it’s been so long since we’ve seen the man let alone gamed with him. I guess what I’m trying to say is that maybe we should simply let the DM do what he wants since we haven’t had the privilege of playing with him in so long.
I’m finding it difficult to remember his particular style of conducting us PCs, but I do remember it as a unique and interesting experience and I can’t help but think that this has something to do with his own experience in GURPS.
Maybe it should be mentioned that the lovely couple might not be here for long either?
Let this gentleman excel in his chosen field, and let us accept the challenge.
March 31, 2008 at 12:38 am
Aha! I am well aware that my reasoning is flawed. I’m sure that flaws are simply inherent when arguing about such a silly issue, and using “facts” and opinion to back things up. To be honest, I’m not really sure where I sit on the issue, but I do like a good debate. Haha.
But seriously, I’m open to new things.
May 6, 2008 at 11:03 pm
I guess this thread went cold:D
Just an afterthought, I want to play 3.5 because I never get to play 3.5. I’ve had to DM most of the time, except when Wes created his own rule book for ‘Coheed and Cambria’. I haven’t played real D&D in months up on months. I’m tired of DMing – noticeable in my last several games:D, but I’m not tired of the system and the many classes and paths you can choose.
Maybe as an option, we could play a GURPS campaign till June, then after Julie and I are settled we could start anew with 4.0 characters – sometime in July. As I’ll be out for at least a couple weeks. The May-June game could be just a GURPS taste and a getting-your-feet-wet with Volara game. Then by July, when we’re ready to make new characters with 4.0, we could start your real campaign.
Then again, you’d have to be willing to use 4.0. Just a thought.